Wed, 24 August 2005 This week, we look at the curious treatment of one Xander Harris in "Dude, Where's My Character Arc?" Comments[24] |
References cited in this episode include: Story - Substance, Structure, Style, and the Principles of Screenwriting, by Robert McKee; Aspects of the Novel, by E. M. Forster; The Writer's Journey, by Christopher Vogler; and The Hero with a Thousand Faces, by Joseph Campbell.
I have never been able to really decide my position on Zander. I completely agree that what moments of growth (such as in Zeppo)he had were always later taken away by the writers. The writers never seemed sure what to do with him. They couldn't make him Angel or Spike like, he wasn't ever going to be cool enough to be Oz nor could he ever filled Giles shoes. I always thought it would have been interesting to have Zander go off on his own or follow through with the wedding to Anya then deal with helping Buffy while having to be a grown up. Especially after the episode when he is split in two and clearly shows he has the ability to exist on his own without Buffy or the surrounding chaos that came with being Buffy's friend.
I did buy that he didn't realize about Willow being gay due to the fact that in Season 4 we barely see them spending any time together. And that he did not realize Spike and Buffy were "dating" (so to speak) as it would be something he just didn't want to acknowledge.
Anyway, another great podcast. I look forward to the discussion on The Body. I'm not sure if I think its the best Buffy episode, certainly top 5, so I'm interested to see if you guys can convince me. I maintain that The Gift is the best episode.
Since you are going to do podcasts on all the characters, I think it would be interesting to do one on Principal Skinner and his role. I hope you do an episode on the Mayor and the long term effect of Season 3. My favourite season.
Anyway, looking forward to the next show. A book discussion would be interesting, just in terms of how (how to put this gently) "not as good as the show" some of them are.
I did buy that he didn't realize about Willow being gay due to the fact that in Season 4 we barely see them spending any time together. And that he did not realize Spike and Buffy were "dating" (so to speak) as it would be something he just didn't want to acknowledge.
Anyway, another great podcast. I look forward to the discussion on The Body. I'm not sure if I think its the best Buffy episode, certainly top 5, so I'm interested to see if you guys can convince me. I maintain that The Gift is the best episode.
Since you are going to do podcasts on all the characters, I think it would be interesting to do one on Principal Skinner and his role. I hope you do an episode on the Mayor and the long term effect of Season 3. My favourite season.
Anyway, looking forward to the next show. A book discussion would be interesting, just in terms of how (how to put this gently) "not as good as the show" some of them are.
We had planned to hit the mayor, season three and The Gift, but we hadn't thought about doing a show on Principal Snyder - good idea, Sarah, we'll add it to the queue. Ever read the book about the tarot card reader? Now there's a block of time we'll never get back. As an interesting addendum to our Xander episode, just after we posted the show we read a recent interview with Nick Brendon, who's out promoting his new sitcom, Kitchen Confidential. He answered a few Buffy questions, and said Joss told him at the end of season four that Xander would be moving to the background for the rest of the series.
Guys I have to say that I thought that your very considered analysis of the Xander character was really very well thought out and mainly spot on. I share the opinion that Xander does not have a character arc, his backstory is largely unexplored with the possible exception of the filling out his family takes during his wedding.
Something I thought I would offer is that when we talk about Xander as the “guy who sees.� He does however through the story arc bear witness to nearly everything. You do note that he is the viewer’s in road into the story, he is entirely human in a show full of supernatural characters. Perhaps what we should look at in this is how we use the word “see� and instead of using the version that implies comprehension we should prefer the definition that relies on having bourne witness or having seen with the eyes.
The only episode I can remember where Xander is purposefully kept out of the loop is ironically in “The Zeppo� which I think we can all agree is a very Xander focused episode and one during which he has a real moment of character growth (however short lived). Other than that he is generally around witnessing everything with a very human set of eyes. I mean let’s face it he’s the only non enchanted sort of bloke we get and having him there to “see� for us gives us the audience a real sense of inclusion.
I can’t argue with the idea that Xander from Season 1 and Xander from Season 7 are in most ways the same guy. The clothes are nicer, there is a lot of external situation choices but he never overcomes anything. However let me again suggest a different way to look at the facts.
All of the core characters overcome character flaws or develop new ones. Angel might be another exception but I think that would require a more focused discussion of what his character is/was. Of the scoobies Buffy, Giles and Willow all have major character arcs. Of the side characters Spike, Anya, Faith, Dawn and Joyce all have character arcs in one way or another. Even Tara has a large change when she and willow part ways, that is an emotional decision that breaks with her previous patterns.
So having in mind that everyone else has a classical story arc perhaps we could say that the change in Xander is that despite Story Arcs and other Character Arcs he remains unchanged is while not a classical story arc, a sort of Anti-arc. Just like we have the Hero and the Anti-hero protagonists we might have an anti-arc in the steadfastness of character in the face of a changing world.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on the issue.
Something I thought I would offer is that when we talk about Xander as the “guy who sees.� He does however through the story arc bear witness to nearly everything. You do note that he is the viewer’s in road into the story, he is entirely human in a show full of supernatural characters. Perhaps what we should look at in this is how we use the word “see� and instead of using the version that implies comprehension we should prefer the definition that relies on having bourne witness or having seen with the eyes.
The only episode I can remember where Xander is purposefully kept out of the loop is ironically in “The Zeppo� which I think we can all agree is a very Xander focused episode and one during which he has a real moment of character growth (however short lived). Other than that he is generally around witnessing everything with a very human set of eyes. I mean let’s face it he’s the only non enchanted sort of bloke we get and having him there to “see� for us gives us the audience a real sense of inclusion.
I can’t argue with the idea that Xander from Season 1 and Xander from Season 7 are in most ways the same guy. The clothes are nicer, there is a lot of external situation choices but he never overcomes anything. However let me again suggest a different way to look at the facts.
All of the core characters overcome character flaws or develop new ones. Angel might be another exception but I think that would require a more focused discussion of what his character is/was. Of the scoobies Buffy, Giles and Willow all have major character arcs. Of the side characters Spike, Anya, Faith, Dawn and Joyce all have character arcs in one way or another. Even Tara has a large change when she and willow part ways, that is an emotional decision that breaks with her previous patterns.
So having in mind that everyone else has a classical story arc perhaps we could say that the change in Xander is that despite Story Arcs and other Character Arcs he remains unchanged is while not a classical story arc, a sort of Anti-arc. Just like we have the Hero and the Anti-hero protagonists we might have an anti-arc in the steadfastness of character in the face of a changing world.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on the issue.
posted by: Miles Cochran on Sun, 8/28 10:55 PM EDT
Miles, I would agree with the possibility that Xander is not intended to have an arc, but reamin as he is in order to remain as the one person whose view of the world isn't influenced by the supernatural, unlike the rest. . . . . This seems to suggest that on a show about the supernatural, the supernatural becomes such a strong metaphor for character development that unless the character develops in their relationship to the supernatural, he or she doesn't develop. It seems pretty true throughout both shows, but I'll have to find a good list of characters to see if this bears out.
If the show is indeed meant to portray that all internal development is tied to one’s supernatural development another interesting way to look at that would be through the Giles character. His involvement with the supernatural was very rocky at times though I might argue that his development is indeed tied to how closely he deals with the Slayer and the supernatural world. When he distances himself from Buffy he seems lost, without purpose and without a drive to his character arc. I am thinking of “The Freshman� in particular. I may need to re-watch that episode to fully flesh out this idea but I think it is a keen observation Steve.
Though I am not sure that ALL characters share this trait but I think a case could be made for all the principles. The Scoobies, Riley, Tara, Spike, Dawn, Joyce, all at some level I think could fit that thesis.
Though I am not sure that ALL characters share this trait but I think a case could be made for all the principles. The Scoobies, Riley, Tara, Spike, Dawn, Joyce, all at some level I think could fit that thesis.
posted by: Miles on Tue, 8/30 02:22 AM EDT
I would agree with Steve too. The characters who truly developed and change (which I would argue were only Willow and Buffy) were strongly linked to the supernatural in someway. The only character I would say this applies to less is Dawn who does develop through the last 3 seasons who starts out very strongly attached to the supernatural but by the end is just another human watching (ala Zander). She's sort of a mini-watcher but not really, not a Slayer but becomes a useful member of the group. One I would argue is more useful then Zander at times. Hmm, either way I'll have to watch some of the last seasons again to see how this bears out. This is a very interesting discussion.
Hey Revello, like the Xander analysis. I always felt he was the essential 'Everyman' character in Buffy. The sort of character that the viewer could project themselves onto, particularly given that he matches the demographic for those who would be expected to be Buffy fans. His character was stilted in the same way certain Marvel and DC mainstream comic books still place their characters in suspended animation, never growing old and never really developing emotionally. In hindsight I think Xander should have followed the path that Wesley followed in Angel - a dork at the start and then hardening into possibly quite a brutal character when faced with the constant barrage of monsters et all. Good luck with the Podcasts by the way. If you're still on air next March I'll help with some material for an Irish themed Buffycast for St Patrick's day!
posted by: Jack Daedalus on Wed, 8/31 06:47 PM EDT
Jack, I think you are on to something with the comment about mainstream comics. Many characters in comics are static. The ones that are dynamic have character arcs, but they reset them every few years. So the character arc is more like a cycle. I think this is a useful comparison for Xander. BtVS was a long-running, episodic show, so the long-range story might resemble the structure of a comic book as much as a movie or a novel. Xander would have some development, but he was "reset" fairly often.
Your point about Xander and the influence of Marvel and DC comics is a good one, Jack. Another example is Angel in season seven's Chosen. He's gone through all sorts of development on his own show, but when he makes his Buffy cameo he's pretty much Angel from Buffy seasons two and three.
I felt that after The Replacement, we didn't get any real character change/development until S6 Hell's Bells. But I most disgusted with the decline of his character in S7. In Lessons, I had hope, but the end I just felt the character had turned into almost a foil at this point, with no real story or direction. And when his eye was poked out, I was done with the writers and their treatement of him, and saddened that such potential for such a great character was lost.
I wish Xander had gotten an Arc of Obstacle to bear, and not just wanting to be cool and fit in. That's why I loved The Pack and The Zeppo, I think those were great example of what the character--and Nick--had to offer.
I wish Xander had gotten an Arc of Obstacle to bear, and not just wanting to be cool and fit in. That's why I loved The Pack and The Zeppo, I think those were great example of what the character--and Nick--had to offer.
Hi Revello, just discovered these casts, and have listened to all 8 today. A fantastic fix for someone missing Buffy! My wife and I watched the whole series for the first time over the last year, and what a show it is.
As for Xander, I was disturbed that even his putative role as the one who sees (which I certainly take to mean "bears witness") is undermined in Season 7 by the use of Andrew, most clearly demonstrated in Storyteller, of course. We even get some obvious pointers that Andrew and Xander are somewhat alike (eg Scott Bakula reference). So what was going on here? If nothing else, Xander had accrued the moral right to be the Scoobies' Witness by virtue of his courage and loyalty, whereas Andrew could (at best) be considered a mere interloper like Kennedy, although even this would be a charitable view.
Was there some moral equivalence being drawn between Andrew's past and Xander's treatment of Anya?
Anyway, keep up the FANTASTIC work. many many thanks,
Professor (Sydney Australia)
As for Xander, I was disturbed that even his putative role as the one who sees (which I certainly take to mean "bears witness") is undermined in Season 7 by the use of Andrew, most clearly demonstrated in Storyteller, of course. We even get some obvious pointers that Andrew and Xander are somewhat alike (eg Scott Bakula reference). So what was going on here? If nothing else, Xander had accrued the moral right to be the Scoobies' Witness by virtue of his courage and loyalty, whereas Andrew could (at best) be considered a mere interloper like Kennedy, although even this would be a charitable view.
Was there some moral equivalence being drawn between Andrew's past and Xander's treatment of Anya?
Anyway, keep up the FANTASTIC work. many many thanks,
Professor (Sydney Australia)
posted by: Professor on Fri, 10/14 12:26 AM EDT
Hmmm.. I think people are being hard on poor Xander (my favorite character, btw. As he probably is for many). How many of us are able to immediately learn a life lesson and profit from it, never again making the same mistake? Especially when it comes to something so ingrained as self-belief? I'm 48 and still struggle with that one! So if Zander takes a step back almost as often as he takes a step forward, that's pretty true to life. The point is, by season 7 he HAS grown more confident. Though I have to wonder at the inherent irony of Xander being the one in charge or rebuilding the highschool--right over the hellmouth! Certainly a topic for further discussion.
Anyway, kudos to you, Revello, for doing these podcasts. I currently live (and teach highs school!) in Egypt, discovering Buffy while channel surfing a couple years ago. I just finished the last DVD of season 7 this summer, and am definitely feeling withdrawal pangs. Your podcasts are a welcome antidote.
Steve Zissou made the connection above between character development and relation to the supernatural. I'm thinking about writing an article for the online Buffy journal where I posit that teachers in Sunnydale die at alarming rate (i.e. not one survives that I can think of, excepting Giles) for exactly that reason: their irrelevance to the Buffyverse. Good teacher or bad, what point is there in learning about Magellan when a spell can change history? Jenny Calendar, Professor Walsh actually survive longer than others because they do develop a relationship with the supernatural world, but are ultimately killed for moral reasons.
I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts on this!
Anyway, kudos to you, Revello, for doing these podcasts. I currently live (and teach highs school!) in Egypt, discovering Buffy while channel surfing a couple years ago. I just finished the last DVD of season 7 this summer, and am definitely feeling withdrawal pangs. Your podcasts are a welcome antidote.
Steve Zissou made the connection above between character development and relation to the supernatural. I'm thinking about writing an article for the online Buffy journal where I posit that teachers in Sunnydale die at alarming rate (i.e. not one survives that I can think of, excepting Giles) for exactly that reason: their irrelevance to the Buffyverse. Good teacher or bad, what point is there in learning about Magellan when a spell can change history? Jenny Calendar, Professor Walsh actually survive longer than others because they do develop a relationship with the supernatural world, but are ultimately killed for moral reasons.
I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts on this!
I have a slightly different take on Xander's growth and story arc. To me he does grow but not in the obvious ways that you see in some of the other characters. His arc is the arc of every slightly geeky boy. Remember that he starts the series as a geeky, socially inept, academically challenged 15/16 year old guy with no real role out side of a Cordelia defined "loser". By the end he is 22/23 year old guy who despite not getting any kind of training he is holding down a pretty technical job (understands architectural plans which is one up on me!) with a lot of responsibility for money, people and for delivering on his responsibilities. Now this has nothing to do with his “other� life as part-time demon fighter but if you took him out of the Buffy-verse, you would be saying that this guy has come a long way. But at the end of the day he is a normal 23 year guy.
Whilst I love the idea of him having potentially being the kernel of what became Riley (and I always thought it was odd that there was no discussion of him joining up with the Initative boys), We see three of the main characters become the ultimate and best/worst of their field but to have the fourth of the main characters also become a powerhouse would not have worked. I saw an interview with Joss where he says that one of the key themes in Buffy is throwing away the grand gesture – these enormous, armegeddon-based things that become the norm so they mean almost nothing. And that is what happens to Xander, his reality is so “big� that his power lies in succeeding in the “normal� world.
I see leaving Anya at the alter as a sign that he knows that it doesn’t matter how much he loves her and she loves him that it will simply not work, at theme that is repeated with Angel/Buffy and Willow. Looking at his decision outside of the Buffyverse, it is a very adult thing to do.
As for him being the one that sees – sure he misses lots of obvious emotional cues (Willow being gay, Buffy suffering having come back from Heavan) but again, show me an average early twenties guy who wouldn’t miss some of those! I think – harking back to Season 4, Primeval, the difference is that he sees with his heart which is the card that he represents when they combine their essences. Xander sees the person in the superhero. He sees Buffy as a girl and a friend, Willow as his best friend not the gay, greatest-witch-ever. His power is to see and centre the others back in the “normal� world– as Buffy says in End of Days in Season 7, “I need someone that I can count on no matter what happens… You’re my strength Xander. You’re the reason I made it this far. I trust you with my life�. When he replies “…if you die, I’ll just bring you back to life.. That’s what I do� I think it means more than just the physical restoration but that he will bring her back to the “normal� world, as he always does.
Whilst I love the idea of him having potentially being the kernel of what became Riley (and I always thought it was odd that there was no discussion of him joining up with the Initative boys), We see three of the main characters become the ultimate and best/worst of their field but to have the fourth of the main characters also become a powerhouse would not have worked. I saw an interview with Joss where he says that one of the key themes in Buffy is throwing away the grand gesture – these enormous, armegeddon-based things that become the norm so they mean almost nothing. And that is what happens to Xander, his reality is so “big� that his power lies in succeeding in the “normal� world.
I see leaving Anya at the alter as a sign that he knows that it doesn’t matter how much he loves her and she loves him that it will simply not work, at theme that is repeated with Angel/Buffy and Willow. Looking at his decision outside of the Buffyverse, it is a very adult thing to do.
As for him being the one that sees – sure he misses lots of obvious emotional cues (Willow being gay, Buffy suffering having come back from Heavan) but again, show me an average early twenties guy who wouldn’t miss some of those! I think – harking back to Season 4, Primeval, the difference is that he sees with his heart which is the card that he represents when they combine their essences. Xander sees the person in the superhero. He sees Buffy as a girl and a friend, Willow as his best friend not the gay, greatest-witch-ever. His power is to see and centre the others back in the “normal� world– as Buffy says in End of Days in Season 7, “I need someone that I can count on no matter what happens… You’re my strength Xander. You’re the reason I made it this far. I trust you with my life�. When he replies “…if you die, I’ll just bring you back to life.. That’s what I do� I think it means more than just the physical restoration but that he will bring her back to the “normal� world, as he always does.
Hi! I just found your podcasts and was determined to catch up on all of them before posting any comments. Clearly, like Buffy at staying dead, I failed. I have to say I'm surprised that it was the Xander episode and not the Spike episode (through which I found and fell in love with these podcasts) that fuelled my failure to stay silent. It just goes to show...well I don't know exactly what it goes to show, so think up something cool and tell yourself I said it. Now, to my actual thoughts: This was an extremely well-thought-out episode and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I have to point out, however, that I agree with the previous comment that Xander as the heart of the gang proves significant. For me, this unlocks his power to "see". Not only does he witness a great deal from a human perspective (which perhaps offers him greater clarity than the other characters about the true weight and--Warning! Vast understatement ahead!--great strangeness of the scoobies' lives), he sees into the hearts of the other characters; he sees what they need to hear and tells it to them. The very conversation with Dawn in which he relates his special power to "see" is a perfect example, as are the yellow crayon and East Cupcake, Illinois conversations.
In terms of his lack of a character arc, I completely agree that this lack exists, but it may actually add to his character being more human and more realistically relatable. I again agree with a previous comment, that Xander's development is more easily seen outside the supernatural realm. Learning to date, dress better, hold down a serious job (and especially forge a career), and express sexuality with greater ease are major ways in which real human beings develop over the seven-year period the audience goes through with Xander, and he does indeed undergo these experiences. Also, I personally just started college and the rapid change of all aspects of my life is forcing me to choose between embracing my more admirable qualities so I can grow up more and clinging to some of more childish qualities (not childlike qualities--those are blessings I will never let go of) to keep my behavior predictable and my world secure. With close examination, I believe most people would discover that in times of drastic change, they experience this struggle. What does this have to do with Xander? I'm getting there, I promise! Because Xander's life is constantly changing due to the supernatural consequences of living on a hellmouth, he quite possibly has embraced his more childish, insecure side so that his personality can provide him with the only constant he can hold onto in an insecure world where even the people he loves constantly change around him. In episodes like "The Zeppo" and "The Replacement" we see that Xander could develop into a more self-confident person, but this development would mean something else in Xander's life--his very identity--would change. In a life plagued by constant danger, maybe Xander chooses the safer survival method of stasis.
I just want to say how much I love these podcasts! It means more to me than I could possibly express to hear fresh ideas about the show--it's been a long time since I've read or heard anything about BtVS that had sparked any new thoughts of my own. Look how much stuff you just prompted me to come up with about Xander! You made me think!!! Color me grateful!!!
In terms of his lack of a character arc, I completely agree that this lack exists, but it may actually add to his character being more human and more realistically relatable. I again agree with a previous comment, that Xander's development is more easily seen outside the supernatural realm. Learning to date, dress better, hold down a serious job (and especially forge a career), and express sexuality with greater ease are major ways in which real human beings develop over the seven-year period the audience goes through with Xander, and he does indeed undergo these experiences. Also, I personally just started college and the rapid change of all aspects of my life is forcing me to choose between embracing my more admirable qualities so I can grow up more and clinging to some of more childish qualities (not childlike qualities--those are blessings I will never let go of) to keep my behavior predictable and my world secure. With close examination, I believe most people would discover that in times of drastic change, they experience this struggle. What does this have to do with Xander? I'm getting there, I promise! Because Xander's life is constantly changing due to the supernatural consequences of living on a hellmouth, he quite possibly has embraced his more childish, insecure side so that his personality can provide him with the only constant he can hold onto in an insecure world where even the people he loves constantly change around him. In episodes like "The Zeppo" and "The Replacement" we see that Xander could develop into a more self-confident person, but this development would mean something else in Xander's life--his very identity--would change. In a life plagued by constant danger, maybe Xander chooses the safer survival method of stasis.
I just want to say how much I love these podcasts! It means more to me than I could possibly express to hear fresh ideas about the show--it's been a long time since I've read or heard anything about BtVS that had sparked any new thoughts of my own. Look how much stuff you just prompted me to come up with about Xander! You made me think!!! Color me grateful!!!
posted by: VampireVixon on Tue, 3/21 03:41 AM EST
i read the lost slayer and it does show xander and hes just like riley no fun and we cant wait to say good bye too him. I dont know about the rest of you but i'm glad that didnt happen. It's almost safe to say that sure he didn't have much of an arc but is that so much a bad thing?
Dearest Revello,
*applauds*
Once again, you have forced me into the light in which i am able to ponder things that i never even knew needed pondering.
When i read the title for this episode, "Dude, where's my character arc?"..i honestly didn't understand what it meant.
As i listened to the episode, i started out with a bit of agitation when you clearly laid out your stance on Xander never really changing and thus having no real character arc.
Let me explain that to me, the buffy world is perfect. Without flaw.
I've watched the show in its entirety: seasons 1-7 when i was in 4th-10th grade.
As a child and teen, it never ever occured to me that there were SO MANY themes to discuss.
So now that i'm a tad old..er*20*, i now am fascinated by the many discussions that are at my disposal...but i digress.
Oh yeah, Xander, lol.
So it occured to me, after you cited all the "growth and degrowth" episodes, that you had a point when you said that although Xander had many oppurtunites for growth he always seemed to regress later on once again.
I get it. I understand it.
But as i think about it, and as Traveller has stated, it doesn't seem to ludicrous of an idea.
Throughout the span of the show, the only character i ever really seemed to identify with was Buffy in respects to the loneliness and isolation that consumed her life. I was a budding little homo going through my own little secret life and in many ways was greatful to have buffy there to relate to..
When the dvds came out during the latter 2 years of my high school life, i was then able to begin to understand the other characters and relate to them as well. *willow's shyness and dorkiness, Oz's subtle cool, Cordelia's narcissim, Angel's brooding, Gile's love for knowledge&keen observance* but oddly enough, the one character i NEVER seemed to relate to was Xander. Not sure why.
However, it wasn't until after High School that i began to see more and more of Xander in myself.
As queer as it might seem, i tend to match my life according to the seasons and the place at which the characters are in during that time.
*So right now i'm in Season 6...bleh*
And as i began my college post-hs life, i began to relate to Xander's 4tt season life.
For lack of a better statement: i felt like a dirctionless loser.
And while Xander later seems to outgrow that phase, i myself seem to be quite stuck in it. bleh.
Anyways, after hearing your disussion on Xander and his non-arc, i began to see this as completley relatable and nondismissive in terms of my own life.
I too have had many eye opening experiences..faced moral dilemas...and i'm sad to say that as much as i overcome, i always seem to be overcomed by those situations later again.
It's like a vicious cycle.
Bleh. I completely forgot where i was going with this...i'm not very good at analyzing things and expressing them very well. so i'll stop.
GREAT EPISODE!!!! :-D
so long and goodnight...
*applauds*
Once again, you have forced me into the light in which i am able to ponder things that i never even knew needed pondering.
When i read the title for this episode, "Dude, where's my character arc?"..i honestly didn't understand what it meant.
As i listened to the episode, i started out with a bit of agitation when you clearly laid out your stance on Xander never really changing and thus having no real character arc.
Let me explain that to me, the buffy world is perfect. Without flaw.
I've watched the show in its entirety: seasons 1-7 when i was in 4th-10th grade.
As a child and teen, it never ever occured to me that there were SO MANY themes to discuss.
So now that i'm a tad old..er*20*, i now am fascinated by the many discussions that are at my disposal...but i digress.
Oh yeah, Xander, lol.
So it occured to me, after you cited all the "growth and degrowth" episodes, that you had a point when you said that although Xander had many oppurtunites for growth he always seemed to regress later on once again.
I get it. I understand it.
But as i think about it, and as Traveller has stated, it doesn't seem to ludicrous of an idea.
Throughout the span of the show, the only character i ever really seemed to identify with was Buffy in respects to the loneliness and isolation that consumed her life. I was a budding little homo going through my own little secret life and in many ways was greatful to have buffy there to relate to..
When the dvds came out during the latter 2 years of my high school life, i was then able to begin to understand the other characters and relate to them as well. *willow's shyness and dorkiness, Oz's subtle cool, Cordelia's narcissim, Angel's brooding, Gile's love for knowledge&keen observance* but oddly enough, the one character i NEVER seemed to relate to was Xander. Not sure why.
However, it wasn't until after High School that i began to see more and more of Xander in myself.
As queer as it might seem, i tend to match my life according to the seasons and the place at which the characters are in during that time.
*So right now i'm in Season 6...bleh*
And as i began my college post-hs life, i began to relate to Xander's 4tt season life.
For lack of a better statement: i felt like a dirctionless loser.
And while Xander later seems to outgrow that phase, i myself seem to be quite stuck in it. bleh.
Anyways, after hearing your disussion on Xander and his non-arc, i began to see this as completley relatable and nondismissive in terms of my own life.
I too have had many eye opening experiences..faced moral dilemas...and i'm sad to say that as much as i overcome, i always seem to be overcomed by those situations later again.
It's like a vicious cycle.
Bleh. I completely forgot where i was going with this...i'm not very good at analyzing things and expressing them very well. so i'll stop.
GREAT EPISODE!!!! :-D
so long and goodnight...
posted by: The Lonely Slayer on Sun, 10/21 02:51 AM EDT
Dearest Revello,
I just remembered one thing i wanted to add.
If any of you are following the new official Season 8 of Buffy, you'll know that Xander is now like the Great Commander of The Buffy Base, lol.
He is in a place of leadership position over the many Slayer squadrons and seems to be doing a good job at it. The commanding i mean.
It's interesting to see how much he's had to change in a year's time since the show ended.
However, you'll notice that his new postion has not at all changed his warm heart and his ability to get through to his friends.
For example, the scenes were he is talking to Buffy about Dawn's unwillingness to open up to Buffy and the other scene where Xander is speaking to Dawn and seems to easily be able to flesh out what could really be the underlying emotions that Dawn is currently experiencing.
I can't wait for u guys to come back and start discussing this new season.
:-D
so long and goodnight...
I just remembered one thing i wanted to add.
If any of you are following the new official Season 8 of Buffy, you'll know that Xander is now like the Great Commander of The Buffy Base, lol.
He is in a place of leadership position over the many Slayer squadrons and seems to be doing a good job at it. The commanding i mean.
It's interesting to see how much he's had to change in a year's time since the show ended.
However, you'll notice that his new postion has not at all changed his warm heart and his ability to get through to his friends.
For example, the scenes were he is talking to Buffy about Dawn's unwillingness to open up to Buffy and the other scene where Xander is speaking to Dawn and seems to easily be able to flesh out what could really be the underlying emotions that Dawn is currently experiencing.
I can't wait for u guys to come back and start discussing this new season.
:-D
so long and goodnight...
posted by: The Lonely Slayer on Sun, 10/21 03:01 AM EDT
Hi guys, great ep again. I had never really considered Xander to be arc-less and still don't simply because I agree with The Traveller in that surely lack of change is still an event. The moments where you think you've taken a big step forward and then life continues as usual are commonplace.
There is also the aspect of tragedy in these kinds of arcs, whereby a character tries to escape a destiny or fate that defines them and fails to do so - this could be seen as a lack of arc as the character doesn't actually change. However, this tragic character is a powerful emotional tool - the only outright reference i can think of is Ritsuko Akagi from Neon Genesis Evangelion, who attempts to escape being her mother, but falls victim to exactly the same flaws. Surely part of Xander's insecurity, seen clearly in Hell's Bells and Restless, is that he will end up becoming his father and any inaction to leave that path is still character development - just not positive and happy character development.
On a side note, if Xander had gone through with the wedding, it would have broken Joss Whedon's commandment that his characters can never be happy it makes for boring television - almost certainly true.
There is also the aspect of tragedy in these kinds of arcs, whereby a character tries to escape a destiny or fate that defines them and fails to do so - this could be seen as a lack of arc as the character doesn't actually change. However, this tragic character is a powerful emotional tool - the only outright reference i can think of is Ritsuko Akagi from Neon Genesis Evangelion, who attempts to escape being her mother, but falls victim to exactly the same flaws. Surely part of Xander's insecurity, seen clearly in Hell's Bells and Restless, is that he will end up becoming his father and any inaction to leave that path is still character development - just not positive and happy character development.
On a side note, if Xander had gone through with the wedding, it would have broken Joss Whedon's commandment that his characters can never be happy it makes for boring television - almost certainly true.
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