Wed, 31 August 2005 "We Come to Praise the Body and to Bury It" It's the one that made Whedon fans everywhere cry "Emmy!" So why is one of Buffy's best epsiodes under suspicion for breaking the show's dynamics? Comments[23] |
I love The Body it's one of my favorite episodes because of the realism it takes in addressing the horrible issue of a parent death. I think if Joss had attempted the episode with any sort of humor it would've been a disservice to anyone who'd lost a parent and to the creative intelligence that Joss has when addressing issues that everyone is faced with. I think there is a partial agreement that Joss has with the audience to not take death seriously, but I think it's on the basis that whoever is writing the episode addresses death as is appropriate to the topic they're addressing. Another episode that springs to mind is Earshot. They dealt with that issue with the utmost seriousness, which it deserved, even before the Columbine tragedy.
Good show, Rev. I never had a problem with fitting The Body into the series as a whole, but I think it is useful to categorize it with episodes like Hush, Restless, or Once More With Feeling: episodes that experimented heavily with tone, but didn't necessarily match the rest of the show. For example, Restless was obviously full of surreal and symbolic dream images that revealed the internal conflicts of the characters, and Hush plays with the way both the characters and the audience rely on words. The Body was an experiment in realism. They are all turning points in the ongoing narrative, but each episode's tone is a departure.
Even though The Body was a bit of an experiment, I agree with Revello's point that The Body seems to create a more serious tone that continues through Season 6. I tend to think this was due to tackling more adult topics-- grief, addiction, dysfunctional relationships, etc. In the high school episodes, conventional horror monsters are the metaphors for adolescent issues like dating or peer pressure. The result is dark, but humorous. But Joyce's death is not a metaphor for anything-- it's just Joyce's death, it's not horror balanced with humor. I did find Season 6 to have many funny moments, such as the musical, but I think after The Body, the topics were more adult, and were handled honestly, and the subject matter became just as dark as the horror metaphor. As Revello mentions, adult life is apparently the 10th Circle of Hell compared to high school. When Willow is addicted to magic—-it's actually darker and more serious than if she had just been addicted to booze or painkillers, and Buffy's relationship choices would not have been any more self-destructive if Spike had been a used car salesman instead of a vampire.
I can't agree more with all three previous posts. I think The Body was such a jolt in the viewers world of Buffy. We weren't expecting such a dark and real tone in our world of vampires and demons, even if Joss is the master of metaphor. Joss did say that S6 theme was 'oh grow up' and it is exactly what each character had to do--stumbling and falling all the way. I never thought of this episode setting the tone for the rest of the series, but now realizing that nothing so jarring could shake Buffy's world than her mother dying and being left to be the adult she's clearly not ready to be. A phenomenal episode that I don't think people were ready for.
I think I most agree with Diagoro that the episode was a departure and a show of singular experimentation but I do not feel that it was in any way shocking. Buffy had been dealing with Joyce’s condition for several episodes, Dawn had been dealing with numerous unprotected verbal assaults from the “crazy� people and there had been a great sense of something coming that Buffy was entirely unable to deal with at any real level. Glory was a mystery and life was well beginning to unravel for our hero. I also discussed with Revello in e-mail the arc of Joss dealing with those things that Buffy could not kill. If you guys are interested I will post that E-Mail to the Blog, in the meantime think back to Season 4 and think about those things that happened that were not killable, they were personal issues and the pains of growing that Buffy had to face that were in many ways as intangible as the Tombogenesis in Season 6, Episode 1. In that episode the others are able to give the tombogenesis form but I think Seasons 4-7 really started to explore the aspects of being in general, not just being a slayer.
posted by: Miles on Mon, 9/5 06:50 PM EDT
Miles, I think it'd be great if you can post that email you sent, as it contained a lot of well thought-out material that folks might be interested in. And I agree Caitlin that humor was largely absent from the body, but the Santa exchange at the dinner table was kind of funny, if extremely dark. Overall, as Steve and others have pointed out, one thing that is true is that metaphor does start to take a backseat in the latter half of the series, perhaps starting with the non-metaphorical death of Joyce.
I liked what you said Miles, and I agree with Daigoro too. But I must say I still found her death shocking, even though in the World of Joss, I shouldn't have. What was I thinking things would turn out well in his world?! Still, Joyce was a major character, I think, and a big part of her world (until she went to college). So it was shocking to me in that respect.
And when you mentioned personal issues, and things Buffy couldn't kill, it reminds me of the scene in , I think it was "Listening to Shadows" where Buffy is washing dishes and she just starts crying. It broke my heart. She was completly helpless and all on her own in role of adult. Another 'real life' Buffy scene I loved.
Agreed, Revello. I don't things were as metaphorical as they were in high school.
And when you mentioned personal issues, and things Buffy couldn't kill, it reminds me of the scene in , I think it was "Listening to Shadows" where Buffy is washing dishes and she just starts crying. It broke my heart. She was completly helpless and all on her own in role of adult. Another 'real life' Buffy scene I loved.
Agreed, Revello. I don't things were as metaphorical as they were in high school.
posted by: Chosen1013 on Thu, 9/8 04:12 PM EDT
I just discovered your podcast! Great job! It's great to see someone saying the same things I've been thinking about for years. Until now, I had no one to tell. I remember not being able to turn away from the screen except during the commericial. I don't know if it was the Train Wreck phenomenon or what. I know in the episodes after that it seemed Buffy and some others did some growing up and that Joyce's death became a collective death of not innocence but of "beginnerhood". The challenges they faced after that, from Willow's rehab to Xander's cold feet, were a little more adult, I guess. Just my 2 cents. Thanks.
I agree with what everyone has said here, with a few points to add. I disagreed with Revello's comment during the cast that Jenny's death stands out because it was so different. Jenny's death stands out because it's the first death of an extended character with whom the Gang AND the audience all have a serious connection. ( Xander's best friend in Welcome to the Hellmouth was virtually an unknown to viewers.) He also suggested that it lack significance because it served a plot point of motivating Buffy to finally kick Angelus' ass.
There's no doubt life in Sunnydale became more serious after The Body. I cried my way through large sections of the episode and what humor was there--Anya's inevitable true-but-did-you-really-have -to bring-it-up comments, was almost a sort of gallows humor. However, this death also served a serious plot function, and not one that could have been resolved in any other way, as Revello suggests.
Freud and Jung both comment on the hero's need to metaphorically kill his father. If this was the season Buffy had to "grow up" and face adult realities, she had to lose a parent figure. She needed Giles to help her explore the further reaches of her powers; more importantly, with her father out of the picture, Joyce was Buffy's only link with her childood and pre-slayer life. To truly come into her powers, Buffy had to lose her dependence on Joyce for her emotional needs.
I don't know--just some thoughts. I need to think this through further! Would enjoy hearing others' comments!
There's no doubt life in Sunnydale became more serious after The Body. I cried my way through large sections of the episode and what humor was there--Anya's inevitable true-but-did-you-really-have -to bring-it-up comments, was almost a sort of gallows humor. However, this death also served a serious plot function, and not one that could have been resolved in any other way, as Revello suggests.
Freud and Jung both comment on the hero's need to metaphorically kill his father. If this was the season Buffy had to "grow up" and face adult realities, she had to lose a parent figure. She needed Giles to help her explore the further reaches of her powers; more importantly, with her father out of the picture, Joyce was Buffy's only link with her childood and pre-slayer life. To truly come into her powers, Buffy had to lose her dependence on Joyce for her emotional needs.
I don't know--just some thoughts. I need to think this through further! Would enjoy hearing others' comments!
i have some thoughts... i agree with revello- things got a bit darker after this episode...but also after this season. buffy's love intrest had withered, so for the rest of 5 and part of 6 she is single-leaving lots more time to reflect on one's self, a subject buffy likes to think of as done. jenny's death was important because it let the cast and more importantly, the audience, that good people would die in this series. it also enabled us to see angelus's wicked side-not only killing jenny for the hurt it would cause the 'scoobs, but also because of her gypsy ancestry. the cherry: he snapped her neck. didnt bite, which means he killed her not out of nessecity to exsist, but to kill. buffy also dies in 5, and finally gets the peace she has been wanting so badly for so long. and to be brought back, to all the same old shit, to have to care for dawn and save the world all over again, and again...i understand why the show had a darker, more serious tone. season 6's big bad was not all that bad- joss dealt with "real life" problems--plumbing, getting a "real" job(double meat palace), your ex getting married, a hangover or two, invisibility, using someone else in a unhealthy relationship to get your mind off of the fact that you hate day to day life, addiction, insecurity, and who could forget, the super nerds? season 6 is by far my favorite season. life is dark, shit happens, but we do live throught it. thanks.
Hello all--I am new to buffycast and have been mulling over the old episodes as respite from exams and grading. I was struck, Revello, by the shock you felt at the shift in tone "The Body" brings about. I also struggled with the dark slant of the later seasons, but ultimately this was what made the show so compelling. BtVS did what so few shows are able to do--it charts the brutal difficulties of life's unfolding. We keep watching because we witness our own struggles, and feel compelled to watch similar patterns unfold in fiction. We understand the lowest moments our characters encounter (I speak not only of Joyce's death, but of Buffy's long ordeal that follows it).
I don't intend for my first post to be dismal. So instead, I'll nod towards the shows ability to follow this difficulties, and to synthesize them with everything we loved about the early seasons. And, since I'll be up all night working, I'll leave you with a quote I came accross this evening, which I felt might be appropriate:
"And in myself, too, many things have perished which I imagined would last forever, and new ones have arisen, giving birth to new sorows and new joys which in those days I could not have foreseen, just as now the old are hard to understand...In reality their echo has never ceased; and it is only because life is now growing more and more quiet round about me that I hear them anew..."
Thanks, and looking forward to the next episode.
I don't intend for my first post to be dismal. So instead, I'll nod towards the shows ability to follow this difficulties, and to synthesize them with everything we loved about the early seasons. And, since I'll be up all night working, I'll leave you with a quote I came accross this evening, which I felt might be appropriate:
"And in myself, too, many things have perished which I imagined would last forever, and new ones have arisen, giving birth to new sorows and new joys which in those days I could not have foreseen, just as now the old are hard to understand...In reality their echo has never ceased; and it is only because life is now growing more and more quiet round about me that I hear them anew..."
Thanks, and looking forward to the next episode.
This is surely by no means intentional, but just one of those "that's interesting" moments. I am rewatching the seasons over again and I just finished watching the first episode of season 4. Buffy and Willow are buying books and Buffy makes a comment about how her Mom is going to freak about how expensive the textbooks are, and says that maybe her Mom will have a "funny aneurysm."
New to the podcast. Am fascinated.
One thing that seems important in this discussion is the fact that Joss intentionally made the show darker and The Body episode was simply an introduction to that darkness. So, I don't know if we can use the darkness present in the subsequent episodes as evidence for the theory that a contract with the audience was inexorably broken. The real question here seems to be: if Joss had wanted to, would the audience have let him bring back the lighter tone and humor of the pre-Body episodes to the episodes that followed? In short, I think he could have, as long as he gave enough "grieving time" to Buffy and the audience. Throughout life, we experience episodic tragedies that make us more reflective and cynical for a time, but often, we bounce back. And unless we pack some serious baggage, our lighter sides tend to dominate again until the next real tragedy. I think this could have happened with Buffy as well. Our contract could have been renewed if Joss and the writers were willing/skillful enough to do it. But they weren't. And, in fact, I don't think the darkness was the real reason that audiences eventually pulled away from Buffy.
I think the real problem with the show after season 3 was the writing. Much of the time-very, very bad. The few bright spots of the apres-3 seasons were definitely in the episodes that Joss wrote/directed (The Body is an example, so I certainly wouldn't call it a problem for the series as much as I would call it a saving grace). Personally, my disaffection with the show actually began in season 4 (the Initiative and farm boy) and simply continued through the soap operatic seasons 5-7. The different character flaws were inconsistent, and often the different problems that the gang came up against lacked impact and energy. They seemed fake and often contrived. So, in conclusion, I would say that even in the darkness (or as Giles would say the "din") of the later seasons, I, as an audience member, had honed my senses enough to spot pretense and artifice. That's the real contract that was broken in Buffy, but it was done several episodes before The Body.
One thing that seems important in this discussion is the fact that Joss intentionally made the show darker and The Body episode was simply an introduction to that darkness. So, I don't know if we can use the darkness present in the subsequent episodes as evidence for the theory that a contract with the audience was inexorably broken. The real question here seems to be: if Joss had wanted to, would the audience have let him bring back the lighter tone and humor of the pre-Body episodes to the episodes that followed? In short, I think he could have, as long as he gave enough "grieving time" to Buffy and the audience. Throughout life, we experience episodic tragedies that make us more reflective and cynical for a time, but often, we bounce back. And unless we pack some serious baggage, our lighter sides tend to dominate again until the next real tragedy. I think this could have happened with Buffy as well. Our contract could have been renewed if Joss and the writers were willing/skillful enough to do it. But they weren't. And, in fact, I don't think the darkness was the real reason that audiences eventually pulled away from Buffy.
I think the real problem with the show after season 3 was the writing. Much of the time-very, very bad. The few bright spots of the apres-3 seasons were definitely in the episodes that Joss wrote/directed (The Body is an example, so I certainly wouldn't call it a problem for the series as much as I would call it a saving grace). Personally, my disaffection with the show actually began in season 4 (the Initiative and farm boy) and simply continued through the soap operatic seasons 5-7. The different character flaws were inconsistent, and often the different problems that the gang came up against lacked impact and energy. They seemed fake and often contrived. So, in conclusion, I would say that even in the darkness (or as Giles would say the "din") of the later seasons, I, as an audience member, had honed my senses enough to spot pretense and artifice. That's the real contract that was broken in Buffy, but it was done several episodes before The Body.
I have deep respect for "The Body." I think the entire episode is truthful, in a stark, overly-lit way. I can't make it through Anya's speech without crying, no matter how many times I force myself to watch the episode (I also can't watch it without calling my mom afterwards and telling her how much I love her and need her in my life). One of the things about Joyce's death that I find the most interesting and unique (and that no one else has commented on yet) is that her death--unlike every other death in the buffyverse--isn't mystical or violent. Joyce dies a completely natural death that no one, not even her super hero daughter, can stop.
posted by: VampireVixon on Tue, 3/28 03:48 AM EST
man everyone has such great points and i dont even know what to say but i can try.... the body was such a great episode and i had recently watched it again (just finished watching bargaining) and sure the show took a darker turn but if they had stayed the same way as they did in seasons 1-3 the show might not be that compelling i mean how long until us the audience say LOOK AROUND YOU PEOPLE YOUR ON A HELLMOUTH.
besides the show never did stop being funny and well just brilliant in my book and it doesn't get much more brilliant than the body
besides the show never did stop being funny and well just brilliant in my book and it doesn't get much more brilliant than the body
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I think some really interesting points have already been raised here which i would like to touch upon. On the point about Jenny's death in relation to Joyce's: I agree with Jessica that at the time, Jenny's death is a massive deal because it is the first death we really care about on the show. However, as Revello says, it is easier to get over her death than Joyce's because it drives the narrative clearly both from a proximate and an ultimate point of view. Immediate effects are that Angelus has now committed a crime that will be unforgivable and lead to his death, and Jenny's spell of restoration places a prop which will come into play later in the season. Ultimately, it is the prompt for Willow to start using magic, a defining characteristic of the later seasons!
In contrast, Joyce's death has no proximate or immediate narrative drive - there's no particular reason why it makes sense for her to die then. Ultimately it has a huge impact on Buffy's character as a provider for Dawn and herself, but this emerges later and can't console us at the time.
I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Tara so far in this conversation. This, more than Joyce, is the death that causes me the most pain on re-watching the show, simply because her path feels so incomplete. Things finally seem to be getting back together for everyone and then she's gone. The difference betweem this death and Jenny's is the lack of connection between killer and victim. Jenny is confronting and threatening Angelus, so there is a more immediate connection between the preceding narrative and the death that makes it more palatable in a piece of fiction. Warren and Tara never even stand in the same room together (?) and certainly know nothing of one another. He doesn't even intend to kill her. This is much more jarring in a narrative sense, because there is no preparation for the death - she doesn't in any way have it coming.
I am once again aware of posting this comment about 18 months after what came before, but if anyone does read this and wants to reply with their thoughts please post!
In contrast, Joyce's death has no proximate or immediate narrative drive - there's no particular reason why it makes sense for her to die then. Ultimately it has a huge impact on Buffy's character as a provider for Dawn and herself, but this emerges later and can't console us at the time.
I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Tara so far in this conversation. This, more than Joyce, is the death that causes me the most pain on re-watching the show, simply because her path feels so incomplete. Things finally seem to be getting back together for everyone and then she's gone. The difference betweem this death and Jenny's is the lack of connection between killer and victim. Jenny is confronting and threatening Angelus, so there is a more immediate connection between the preceding narrative and the death that makes it more palatable in a piece of fiction. Warren and Tara never even stand in the same room together (?) and certainly know nothing of one another. He doesn't even intend to kill her. This is much more jarring in a narrative sense, because there is no preparation for the death - she doesn't in any way have it coming.
I am once again aware of posting this comment about 18 months after what came before, but if anyone does read this and wants to reply with their thoughts please post!
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