Wed, 28 September 2005 "Mr. Spike, Dr. Freud Will See You Now" Spike takes a seat on the couch as we explore just what it is this fool for love is looking for. This show references seasons 2-7. Comments[9] |
First Post! W00t!
Gotta say this was a really good show, it felt really short to me though. I think that each of the four main relationships Spike has (his mother, Dru, Harm, and Buffy) could each have their own show and you would not be pressed for content. I really liked the idea that Hrmony’s relationship was more domestic than Spike wanted though I am not sure I agree entirely that the domesticity of the relationship is what caused it to break down. I think if you take Harmony apart she has the youth, vigor and humanity of Buffy with the immaturity, neediness and impulsiveness of Drusilla. I think she serves as a proof that Spike is looking for something different than he had before as well as the idea that he is indeed done with Drusilla (Sort of). I would say that since we see Spike when he returns as more goal oriented than relationship oriented this arks a shift in his character that simply does not lend itself to him being in a full time relationship, which is what Harmony seems to want/need from him. His searching for the Gem of Amara is what he needs to do and Harmony isn’t comfortable playing second fiddle. She also tries to assert her own power over Spike through sex which does cause Spike to dismiss servants, change plans and even take her to the party where he runs back into Buffy. But like I said there is a ton of material here.
Gotta say this was a really good show, it felt really short to me though. I think that each of the four main relationships Spike has (his mother, Dru, Harm, and Buffy) could each have their own show and you would not be pressed for content. I really liked the idea that Hrmony’s relationship was more domestic than Spike wanted though I am not sure I agree entirely that the domesticity of the relationship is what caused it to break down. I think if you take Harmony apart she has the youth, vigor and humanity of Buffy with the immaturity, neediness and impulsiveness of Drusilla. I think she serves as a proof that Spike is looking for something different than he had before as well as the idea that he is indeed done with Drusilla (Sort of). I would say that since we see Spike when he returns as more goal oriented than relationship oriented this arks a shift in his character that simply does not lend itself to him being in a full time relationship, which is what Harmony seems to want/need from him. His searching for the Gem of Amara is what he needs to do and Harmony isn’t comfortable playing second fiddle. She also tries to assert her own power over Spike through sex which does cause Spike to dismiss servants, change plans and even take her to the party where he runs back into Buffy. But like I said there is a ton of material here.
posted by: Miles on Wed, 9/28 11:29 PM EDT
Hi There,
Thought I'd join you in here Miles...
Firstly, congratulations on a wonderful and intelligent show. And just when I thought I’d weaned myself off Buffy…!
I wanted to talk about a few themes in relation to Spike and his choice of women. The first theme being power. Spike is drawn to women who have power over him. His mother protects hims and has power over him, as subsequently does Dru. As he devotes his life (uhum, death) to Dru, he embraces all that he was not in life. Spike becomes the anti-William. The three major relationships (I discount Harmony) for Spike have involved his desperate desire to be needed, and in no case does this seem to have been reciprocated to him. Hence the three women hold a power over him – one that frustrates him when all doesn’t go smoothly. He clearly demonstrates he is indeed “love’s bitch�.
The second theme is darkness. Spike is drawn to darkness in both Drusilla and Buffy. After being turned, he demonstrates a desire for the depraved, troubled and outright evil. He embraces Drusilla for being all that William wasn’t, and taking him from a life of “mediocrity�. He is drawn to Buffy at a time when she herself becomes increasingly troubled and her character darkens. Buffy also has a power over him in that he cannot kill her.
Spikes sexuality cannot be dismissed either as it is a strong theme with all of his romantic relationships, and possibly his only draw to Harmony. His other relationships have consumed him, yet she fails to. However, she has significance if only just to show us that again Spike has opted for the opposite of his previous life (Drusilla). I disagree with Miles that she parallels with Buffy. I think she is all that Drusilla and Buffy aren’t. When it comes to it, she displays little darkness and no propensity for true evil. In fact I love her tussle with Xander when he finds her burning Spike’s clothes. It illustrates so well that they both struggle on in a world that they don’t quite fit into. Also bear in mind that Harmony needs him far more than he needs her at this point, and therefore she hold no power over him. As has been demonstrated - this isn't what Spike is all about.
Oooh. It’s late. Looking forward to the next show.
Thought I'd join you in here Miles...
Firstly, congratulations on a wonderful and intelligent show. And just when I thought I’d weaned myself off Buffy…!
I wanted to talk about a few themes in relation to Spike and his choice of women. The first theme being power. Spike is drawn to women who have power over him. His mother protects hims and has power over him, as subsequently does Dru. As he devotes his life (uhum, death) to Dru, he embraces all that he was not in life. Spike becomes the anti-William. The three major relationships (I discount Harmony) for Spike have involved his desperate desire to be needed, and in no case does this seem to have been reciprocated to him. Hence the three women hold a power over him – one that frustrates him when all doesn’t go smoothly. He clearly demonstrates he is indeed “love’s bitch�.
The second theme is darkness. Spike is drawn to darkness in both Drusilla and Buffy. After being turned, he demonstrates a desire for the depraved, troubled and outright evil. He embraces Drusilla for being all that William wasn’t, and taking him from a life of “mediocrity�. He is drawn to Buffy at a time when she herself becomes increasingly troubled and her character darkens. Buffy also has a power over him in that he cannot kill her.
Spikes sexuality cannot be dismissed either as it is a strong theme with all of his romantic relationships, and possibly his only draw to Harmony. His other relationships have consumed him, yet she fails to. However, she has significance if only just to show us that again Spike has opted for the opposite of his previous life (Drusilla). I disagree with Miles that she parallels with Buffy. I think she is all that Drusilla and Buffy aren’t. When it comes to it, she displays little darkness and no propensity for true evil. In fact I love her tussle with Xander when he finds her burning Spike’s clothes. It illustrates so well that they both struggle on in a world that they don’t quite fit into. Also bear in mind that Harmony needs him far more than he needs her at this point, and therefore she hold no power over him. As has been demonstrated - this isn't what Spike is all about.
Oooh. It’s late. Looking forward to the next show.
I like much of your analysis of Spike's relationship with women, but I think you missed the obvious with regard to Harmony: From the beginning, she is a stand-in for his attraction to Buffy. This is made explicit in the episode where he has Harmony play slayer-vampire sex games, but the signs are there earlier on, too.
At first Harmony is, for Spike, a credible stand-in for Buffy: She's blond, like Buffy, she's from the same high school and same high school class, and she was even friends with one of the Scoobies (and while *we* know that the relationship between Harmony and Cordelia was often less than friendly, and that Cordelia was a reluctant half-hearted Scoobie, Spike probably doesn't know or care).
In season two, when Spike gives Buffy needed information to defeat Angel and Drusilla, the reason he gives to Buffy for doing so is clearly only part of the reason. Yes, he likes the world as it is ("Happy Meals with feet" indeed). But we as viewers also know that he's also motivated by his jealousy of the re-developing relationship between Angelus and Drusilla. He wants to break that up, and if he can further hurt Angelus by winning the favor of the woman Angelus is most obsessed by, all the better. In this act, the seeds of the relationship between Buffy and Spike are first sown.
When Spike returns in season three because Drusilla has dumped him, he clearly is quite moved by and jealous of the relationship between Buffy and Angel, and the power that Buffy has had to transform Angel not once, but twice. It is this visit that sets up the relationship with Harmony--the first of his Buffy stand-ins. The relationship with Harmony is perfect for throwing into Drusilla's face ("Yeah, you got a chaos demon, but I've got one of the slayer's friends"). And what's the first thing he does with Harmony, once they're together: He brings her back to Sunnydale to show her off to Buffy.
At first Harmony is, for Spike, a credible stand-in for Buffy: She's blond, like Buffy, she's from the same high school and same high school class, and she was even friends with one of the Scoobies (and while *we* know that the relationship between Harmony and Cordelia was often less than friendly, and that Cordelia was a reluctant half-hearted Scoobie, Spike probably doesn't know or care).
In season two, when Spike gives Buffy needed information to defeat Angel and Drusilla, the reason he gives to Buffy for doing so is clearly only part of the reason. Yes, he likes the world as it is ("Happy Meals with feet" indeed). But we as viewers also know that he's also motivated by his jealousy of the re-developing relationship between Angelus and Drusilla. He wants to break that up, and if he can further hurt Angelus by winning the favor of the woman Angelus is most obsessed by, all the better. In this act, the seeds of the relationship between Buffy and Spike are first sown.
When Spike returns in season three because Drusilla has dumped him, he clearly is quite moved by and jealous of the relationship between Buffy and Angel, and the power that Buffy has had to transform Angel not once, but twice. It is this visit that sets up the relationship with Harmony--the first of his Buffy stand-ins. The relationship with Harmony is perfect for throwing into Drusilla's face ("Yeah, you got a chaos demon, but I've got one of the slayer's friends"). And what's the first thing he does with Harmony, once they're together: He brings her back to Sunnydale to show her off to Buffy.
Steve - I think I agree with you in general but something in what your saying doesn't work for me.I get the stand-in idea and think that hs a lot of merit. I don't think I can follow you through Harmony as a trophy though. She doesn't seem to impress anyone. Maybe Spike thought she would, but I think more that he subconciously wants Buffy and so picks Harmony because she functions so well as a stand-in. I think you would have to show me where Spike treats Harmony like a "prize" or something he wants to show off for me to buy that one. I'm not sure he ever does treat her in a way that matches your theory.
posted by: Miles on Tue, 10/4 12:55 AM EDT
As mentioned in 1-7, below is the arc suggested by Steve to get folks interested in BTVS. Thanks again, Steve.
Buffy: The Buffy-Angelus chapter
A five-episode arc (with an optional sixth)
* Surprise (episode 13; disc 4, ep 1)
* Innocence (episode 14; disc 4, ep 2)
* Passion (episode 17; disc 5, ep 1)
* (optional) I Only Have Eyes for You (episode 19; disc 5, ep 3)
* Becoming, part 1 (episode 21, disc 6, ep 1)
* Becoming, part 2 (episode 22, disc 6, ep 2)
Backstory: The relationships between Buffy and Angel and between Giles and Jenny have been developing slowly over the past two years.
Everything else you need to know is revealed in the first 10 minutes of "Surprise."
Buffy: The Buffy-Angelus chapter
A five-episode arc (with an optional sixth)
* Surprise (episode 13; disc 4, ep 1)
* Innocence (episode 14; disc 4, ep 2)
* Passion (episode 17; disc 5, ep 1)
* (optional) I Only Have Eyes for You (episode 19; disc 5, ep 3)
* Becoming, part 1 (episode 21, disc 6, ep 1)
* Becoming, part 2 (episode 22, disc 6, ep 2)
Backstory: The relationships between Buffy and Angel and between Giles and Jenny have been developing slowly over the past two years.
Everything else you need to know is revealed in the first 10 minutes of "Surprise."
I like the arc idea. What about expanding it a little bit and starting with "Welcome to the Hellmouth/Harvest", "Angel" and "Prophecy Girl" (all from Season 1) then going straight to "Surprise"? If you could find a newbie who doesn't know Angel is a vampire it would be a shame to pass up the chance to surprise them.
Great show, as always Rev! Now, I think all of Spike's relationships with women have been disturbing. Excluding Harmony, because I think that relationship was exactly what it was: a stop over from Buffy. Although, I agree most with Christina on the H/S relationship. Still, I don't think Spike was very invested or even interested in the Harmony thing, mainly because she couldn't give him what he needed which was challenge, jealousy, darkness and power over him. (though she tried with sex)
I agree that B/S deserves an entire show. Too much to anyalize there. I think he loved Buffy and enjoyed the relationship partly because she had the power and didn't demand anything from him -- she didn't even consider what they had a real relationship.
He exploited her pain and dark period, and was very suffocating, he also jumped right on her lack of being able to say no to him, in the last couple of seasons (when Buffy was not the Buffy we once knew) she had a neediness that he was all to ready to fuflill, he praised her, tooted her horn and was her most devoted cheering section, when not even the Scoobies were.
Spike is a submissive, despite his exterior. And he enjoyed Buffy having control but letting him think he had control -- sex at the Bronze, sex in the front yard, etc. He had no control i that, SHE let him.
Spike said he's 'loves Bitch' but didnt' show it all the time, as in his attempted rape of Buffy. (I'll rape her into loving me!) Spuffy had many issues, and one was that there was never any boundaries -- or any that Spike cared to respect.
I agree that B/S deserves an entire show. Too much to anyalize there. I think he loved Buffy and enjoyed the relationship partly because she had the power and didn't demand anything from him -- she didn't even consider what they had a real relationship.
He exploited her pain and dark period, and was very suffocating, he also jumped right on her lack of being able to say no to him, in the last couple of seasons (when Buffy was not the Buffy we once knew) she had a neediness that he was all to ready to fuflill, he praised her, tooted her horn and was her most devoted cheering section, when not even the Scoobies were.
Spike is a submissive, despite his exterior. And he enjoyed Buffy having control but letting him think he had control -- sex at the Bronze, sex in the front yard, etc. He had no control i that, SHE let him.
Spike said he's 'loves Bitch' but didnt' show it all the time, as in his attempted rape of Buffy. (I'll rape her into loving me!) Spuffy had many issues, and one was that there was never any boundaries -- or any that Spike cared to respect.
loved the cast spikes my favorite character and his arc is the best. Its what Angel's missing on his show and well he cant be on both and season 5 fixed that up nicely.
ill talk about each of spikes love
Mom: i havent thought much about her but i think i agree she was the catalyst for how spike became who he is
Drusilla: She was his everything but when it comes to Dru its impossible to say for certain how she felt of course there was some love as you said in the cast from what the judge said to them. But she did it with Angel right in front of him talk about insane.
Harmony: she was nothing but a joke and Spike simply used her nothing more
Buffy: I LOVE Spike and Buffy's realationship i mean before he loved her he certaintely was obsessed with her. Sorry for the extremely lame pun but spike had a chip in his head long before the initiative showed up and its called love. I think in some small way he had some sort of feelings for her way back in season 2 not saying it was love at first sight. But i think he was in denial i mean Dru saw right through him and knew if u remember fool for love. It wasn't to get Dru away from Angel. If that was the case he could have just knocked her out and drove out without even going to buffy but i think if it wasnt love exactly than it was like someone else said her about wanting to stick to angelus. First thing he does when hes corpreal in season 5 Angel was grab Harmony for some sex sure it wasn't Buffy but the next best thing.
ill talk about each of spikes love
Mom: i havent thought much about her but i think i agree she was the catalyst for how spike became who he is
Drusilla: She was his everything but when it comes to Dru its impossible to say for certain how she felt of course there was some love as you said in the cast from what the judge said to them. But she did it with Angel right in front of him talk about insane.
Harmony: she was nothing but a joke and Spike simply used her nothing more
Buffy: I LOVE Spike and Buffy's realationship i mean before he loved her he certaintely was obsessed with her. Sorry for the extremely lame pun but spike had a chip in his head long before the initiative showed up and its called love. I think in some small way he had some sort of feelings for her way back in season 2 not saying it was love at first sight. But i think he was in denial i mean Dru saw right through him and knew if u remember fool for love. It wasn't to get Dru away from Angel. If that was the case he could have just knocked her out and drove out without even going to buffy but i think if it wasnt love exactly than it was like someone else said her about wanting to stick to angelus. First thing he does when hes corpreal in season 5 Angel was grab Harmony for some sex sure it wasn't Buffy but the next best thing.
Post your comment:
