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"Angel, Version 1.0" Storywise, L.A. Angel may be the best character in the Buffyverse. Sunnydale Angel is the anti-L.A. Angel. References Seasons 1-3 and 5-7.
Direct download: Buffycast_1-8.mp3
Category:podcasts -- posted at: 10:01pm EDT

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  • its late and my head hurts from thinking too hard but i want to say you are right Pumpakhet i cant read all this right now ill try another time but yes i think his need for redemption stems from the fact that he remembers EVERYTHING Angelus did and damn i dont think we were shown even little fraction of what Angelus did he probably raped little girls while there parents where tied up and forced to watch whil Darla stood and raped her brother something like that ugh i would do everything i could to not only get that entity out of my head but destroy it. Im not saying getting it out of my body but destroying it kinda like what happened with fred when Illyria took over Angelus is not going back to hell he\'ll like it to much he must stop existing and i think thats what Angel wants more than anything, being human and being with buffy a very very very close second.

    posted by: Spuffy the Bangel on 2006-07-18 06:49:00

  • Hi! Love your podcast--I\'ve been catching up, listening to all the episodes so far. I love the way you tackle specific issues, and address them so fairly and so intelligently. I also agree with what Buffy tells Ford in \"Lie to Me\" that you die, and the demon takes over. I think Buffy would almost have to know what she was talking about in order to do her job--if it was something different, the Watchers would know, and if it\'s Buffy we\'re talking about, she\'d find a way to find out eventually. We still have the fact to deal with that vampires retain human personalities, and that they are capable of growth. I think the first can be explained by \"Buffy\'s\" X-Men connection, specifically with Dark Phoenix. Phoenix had all of Jean\'s memories, and it also emulated her so perfectly that it took on her personality, eventually enough to also take on her morality, but it wasn\'t Jean. Of course, this brings up another fascinating question--how much of our memories and personality patterns (types of speaking, thinking, ways of making moral choices) make us who we are--does it ever get to the point where a difference that makes no difference is no difference? But when demons animate bodies that have very strong personalities to begin with (or alternately, demons who have weak personalities animate bodies with average personalities), they\'ll act like the original humans. I think this is what happened to Spike and Harmony. Angel\'s question is not whether Liam is responsible for Angelus (Liam\'s dead), but whether it\'s possible for a demon to become a moral creature. Giles initially thought no, never. But then Angel was given a conscience, a soul. I think it\'s interesting that in the season 5 Angel episode, \"Harm\'s Way,\" Harmony says \"It\'s easier for you; the rest of us don\'t have souls.\" I think that demons just aren\'t capable of choosing good for good\'s sake, unless something external happens to give them that capacity. (The soulless boy in \"Angel\" wasn\'t capable of choosing good for good\'s sake either.) At the same time, some demons are different than others. Angel tells Spike that as Angelus, he killed people with a song in his heart--he liked being cruel--where for Spike it was all about the challenge and the kill, not about inflicting pain for its own sake. I think that\'s part of where Angel\'s guilt comes from, and it\'s the part that Spike can\'t understand. Spike\'s a different case. I think with him, we actually saw a demon transform into a creature on the side of good. At the same time, Spike couldn\'t identify with Angel\'s guilt--he\'d chosen the side he thought was right, but he didn\'t quite understand right and wrong before he got a soul. Regarding Angel\'s feeling guilty for Angelus, I think part of it has to do with the way he was partially responsible. It\'s another whole question: how much responsibility does a person have when he or she doesn\'t have the capacity to do differently. Abstract responsibility aside, Angel remembers every life he destroyed, and he remembers doing it, and I think he\'d have to be less than human not to agonize over it--in much the same way as we agonize over unintentionally hurting the people we care about.

    posted by: Alicia on 2007-03-15 01:00:00

  • Regarding Angel\'s return from the hell dimension. Couldn\'t it be Jasmine\'s doing (Rain of Fire story arc Angel S4). I think Skip makes allusion to it during his monologue about all the little cogs that had to be put in place for Jasmine to be begotten in human form.

    posted by: Adam on 2007-07-18 18:34:00

  • Re: Angel returning from Hell. On pure memory, I always thought he was brought back by \\\"The First\\\" because the First wanted him to kill Buffy, he was brought back as a weapon. He was tortured by past wrong-doings, even forced to re-live them (with Buffy experiencing them also). This was supposed to drive him mad enough to want release, which would come in the form of him \\\'forcing\\\' buffy and then killing her. Thus removing her as a threat and also bring Angelus back. If it had worked the First would\\\'ve been golden! This whole ep is what really sparked Angel into his \\\"redemption-mode\\\". Part of the reason he left Sunnydale was to remove distractions (i.e. buffy) from his purpose. Once he gets to LA he soon learns (in Season 1 I believe) that if he redeems himself he can become human - so that is another motivator to atone. I really don\\\'t see all of the contradictions people are listing here.... Re: Demons/Vamps/Souls/Humans - I agree with a lot of people here. I always envisioned the buffyverse vampire transition being that when you are vamped your soul is blocked/trapped/inhibited - it\\\'s like it\\\'s not there. The demon does take over but! In the b-verse vampires are human/demon hybrids, they are not pure demon - so any humanity that was seen on the show I always just took as humanity coming through.

    posted by: LynnNYC on 2007-11-05 18:02:00

  • I want to challenge Revello\'s position that SouledAngel did not have to feel guilty for Angeluses actions. He said that if someone took over his body and did attrocious acts then he believe he would not feel guilty for those things that happened outside of his control. Perhaps. Especially if he had no memories of those acts. However, Angel *does* have those memories. He can recall the faces of everyone he tortured, killed, drove insane. I would think those memoried alone might be enough to make someone want to atone, to take on the guilt, whether they believed they were in control at the time or not. Also, earlier posters have made much of the fact that SouledAngel and Angelus are so different when it appears that UnsouledSpike and SouledSpike are not. One could argue that there are many differences. Clearly the differences are not quite so extreme. I\'m going to guess that while Spike is unusual perhaps he is not unique. Perhaps in Angel\'s long life he came to recognize other vampires that had been able to hold on to more of their humanity (for whatever unexplained reason). I would think this would also lead to more guilt and reason for attoning. So rather than argue that Spike blows the verse I\'d say it helps to support Angel\'s need for redemption storyline.

    posted by: buffylovr on 2006-03-03 15:15:00

  • I\'m in the camp of \"the vampire demon is different from the human.\" Therefore, when a human soul is placed back into a body in which a vampire demon also resides, you have two entities at \"war\" with each other. The result, is a hybrid personality - beither vampire demon, nor human. That\'s why Angel doesn\'t call himself \"Liam.\" He\'s NOT Liam - he\'s an entity that is influenced by both the human Liam, and the vampire demon Angelus. HOWEVER, Liam clearly has the upper hand, and that\'s why he does mostly good - Liam is the \"drvier\" of the body. Why does he have upper hand? Perhaps because Liam was a dominant personaility in his prior life? Or perhaps, more likely, because of the gypsy curse. Now with Spike, it\'s the same story, but with a different result. Spike with William\'s soul (let\'s call him \"Spilliam\"), is ALSO a hybrid personality. William influences the actions of Spilliam. But in this case, the vampire demon Spike is the \"driver\" - he has the upper hand. Why? Perhaps because William was a submissive personality pre-vamping. Or perhaps it has to with the method in which Willaim was put back into the body. In any event, with Spike in control, the difference between \"Spike\" and \"Spilliam\" is not so noticible. But it IS there. Hence at last in Spilliam (who calls himself \"Spike\"), we have an entity who can love Buffy - be the \"man\" she deserves. As to the issue of Angel\'s guilt, I agree with harleyquinn, above, thay Angel has all of the memories of Angelus. He recalls every terrible thing Angelus did, and to him it feels like HE did it. That would cause tremendous guilt - so even though intellectually he might know he\'s not responsible, emotionally he feels resonsible. But beyond that, to the extent that \"Angel\" is that hybrid personality I mentioned, he actully IS partly culpable - the part that is Angelus. And therefore he feels the need to atone for that part of himself. I THINK this interpretation works with all of the episodes and harmonizes what appeared to be contradictions in the mythos. Comments?

    posted by: Len on 2006-04-21 02:19:00

  • Doesent Angel remember everything Angeleous does? If you remembered everything a killer did in your body, experiencing it as it happens wouldnt you feel responsible..........

    posted by: pumapakhet on 2006-06-11 06:33:00

  • Anna and Menachem already stated what I was going to, that Angel is the demon with a soul, it\'s the demon that is feeling the need for redemption, that is why whenever the soul is removed, the demon is back in charge as Angelus. GREAT Podcast. Hurry back with more soon!

    posted by: harleyquinn on 2006-02-13 22:59:00

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